Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien [ericparoissien@gmail.com] Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Dezember 2007 12:27 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Liberation: 4 steadiness The only constant in the universe is change, or shall we say the only constant of perception is change, but there is no difference in the two statements, the universe exists only as perceived/considered. Moods are the negative side of change, from mood to mood, roller-coaster of superficial emotions and within one persistent mood, a deeper negativity, the burden of yearning to realize one's dream or find a meaning to one's life. Liberation, devoid of moods, finds you in the same peaceful disposition morning after morning, the steadiness looks as if there was a quality of attention that finds its foundation deeper that the restlessness of the environment, unconcerned by its demands, reminding you every time attention is solicited by the body or an external call "this is not me", and drop it. It is light and heavy at the same time, cannot be moved to the panic or enthusiasm of others or crowds, or the fear for one's health, but keep stimulated and enthusiastic in the million signals of perception, it is devoid of concentration, it does not seek to stay on an object or a thought more than a second. (this is todays reflection number 1,2 and 3 are here) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nonduality/ Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann [ka@khidr.net] Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Dezember 2007 20:41 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Liberation: 4 steadiness Hi Eric, you wrote: > The only constant in the universe is change, ... > it is devoid of concentration, it does not seek to stay on an object > or a thought more than a second. > (this is todays reflection number 1,2 and 3 are here) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nonduality/ you want to discuss about it, exchange about it or get feedback about it, or ...? And to whom was it addressed? Kabir Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien [ericparoissien@gmail.com] Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Dezember 2007 23:31 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Liberation: 4 steadiness --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: > > Hi Eric, > > you wrote: > > The only constant in the universe is change, ... > > it is devoid of concentration, it does not seek to stay on an object > > or a thought more than a second. > > (this is todays reflection number 1,2 and 3 are here) > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nonduality/ > > you want to discuss about it, exchange about it or get feedback about > it, or ...? And to whom was it addressed? > > Kabir Oh, sending some ideas; this brings that, and sometimes people start a thread, who knows. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Dezember 2007 00:28 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Liberation: 4 steadiness --- Eric wrote: > Oh, sending some ideas; this brings that, and sometimes people start a > thread, who knows. Do you mean, you don't want to start a thread? I'm just asking, because your statements had been sort of "lonesome", with addressing anybody, with asking a question or asking for feedback, discussion or the like. Hence I'm not sure, how much "intrusion" into your ideas you would like and/or wether you like to go into the direction of a dialogue about them or would rather have them treated like a monologue. You know, for example I do see the world differently, but if I just say so, a sort of contest of ideas might develop, and that's not what I want to express. So, to put a long story short: how much feedback do you want and if any at all - from whom and how detailled? Michael -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Dezember 2007 05:49 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Liberation: 4 steadiness --- just corrected some important typos -- Kabir --- -- Eric wrote: > Oh, sending some ideas; this brings that, and sometimes people start a > thread, who knows. Do you mean, you don't want to start a thread? I'm just asking, because your statements had been sort of "lonesome", without addressing anybody, without asking a question or asking for feedback, discussion or the like. Hence I'm not sure, how much "intrusion" into your ideas you would like and/or wether you like to go into the direction of a dialogue about them or would rather have them treated like a monologue. You know, for example I do see the world differently, but if I just say so, a sort of contest of ideas might develop, and that's not what I want to express. So, to put a long story short: how much feedback do you want and if any at all - from whom and how detailled? Michael -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Dezember 2007 08:16 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Liberation: 4 steadiness --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: > > --- just corrected some important typos -- Kabir --- > > > > -- Eric wrote: > > Oh, sending some ideas; this brings that, and sometimes people start > > a thread, who knows. > > Do you mean, you don't want to start a thread? We just did. > I'm just asking, because your statements had been sort of "lonesome", > without addressing anybody, without asking a question or asking for > feedback, discussion or the like. It is a musing without aim or stake. > Hence I'm not sure, how much "intrusion" into your ideas you would > like and/or wether you like to go into the direction of a dialogue > about them or would rather have them treated like a monologue. They are not mine, its been said countless times before. > You know, for example I do see the world differently, but if I just > say so, a sort of contest of ideas might develop, and that's not what > I want to express. We'll follow from where you start Michael, give a chance to the place to lay things on the ground, appreciate your quality of landscape, no need to bring the caterpillars. > So, to put a long story short: > how much feedback do you want > and if any at all - from whom > and how detailled? Any feedback welcome, i don't know who is liberated and who's not, i don't have this ability; what ever people declare about themselves is good as gold by me. > Michael > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Dezember 2007 08:20 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] One chitchat topic Michael I just signed out to check that the group is private and since the posts are private to this place: WHat do you know about Sarlo, have you exchanged with him? (assuming you hanged out with the Osho crowd, but i ain't sure about that either) -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Dezember 2007 08:43 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Liberation: 4 steadiness --- Eric Paroissien wrote: > We'll follow from where you start Michael, give a chance to the place > to lay things on the ground, appreciate your quality of landscape, no > need to bring the caterpillars. Actually that's what I try to do, but my personal problem with this is, that I am a caterpillar myself - or butterfly in training, so to say... So I'm sort of careful how fast and on whom I chew. > Any feedback welcome, i don't know who is liberated and who's not, Neither do I > i don't have this ability; > what ever people declare about themselves is good as gold by me. Aha. Well I follow my feelings, that suites me better. Especially in a surrounding, where I feel and found out, that lying is rather the rule than an exception. I'll come back later to your posting, there are interesting things to say from my side, but it might become a lengthy thing. See you then -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Dezember 2007 09:24 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: One chitchat topic Michael --- Eric wrote: > WHat do you know about Sarlo, have you exchanged with him? > (assuming you hanged out with the Osho crowd, but i ain't sure about > that either) I had been an average Sannyasin (as I'd call it) for 12 years. Then I participated in an intense training for some years, which among others, freed me completely from the Sannyas-conditioning and at the same time boosted my personal sensitivity, awareness and experience by some magnitudes. Hence I'm familiar with Sannyas as well as with it's dangers and possible revelations. For me the Sannyas-experience is complete. I have been there and I came back. But because of these experiences, I see my possible value for Sannyasins who are in similiar situations. Hence I'm often sort of sent back into places, where Sannyasins hang out. Sarlo I have not met in person, in his group I have been about three times - already without the Sannyas-conditione then, hence with heightened wareness about the Sannyas thinking/feeling/behaviour patterns. Sarlo is intelligent and can work with words very well, but his intentions do not meet mine. Regarding the possible develop of Sannyas I see him as a reactionist holding on to the old patterns (from which I have freed my self in a lengthy and painful process), so we are pulling a the same rope, but in different directions. He want's to be a Sannyas-priest, wants to hold "his" Sannyas-list together with his rather political tactics, and I'd rather blow it all up to give my fellow Sannyasins a chance (or a kick) to use their own minds and hearts, instead of relying to Osho. I'd prefer a few friends of intellectual and emotional freedom around me, while Sarlo goes for a big number of followers, I assume. He'd had the intelligence and power to take the other, insecure and unknown road, I think, but he decided consciously to stay on the easy, traditional and "safe" old Neo-Sannyas-shore as most Sannyasins do (at least those, who still call themselves Sannyasins and hang around in the famous Sannyas-Circles). Do I need to lighten a candle for Sarlo now, in a Kramic exchange for my prejudices and opinions regarding him? ;) Michael -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Dezember 2007 14:18 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: One chitchat topic Michael --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: ... > I'd prefer a few friends of intellectual and emotional freedom around > me, while Sarlo goes for a big number of followers, I assume. He'd had > the intelligence and power to take the other, insecure and unknown > road, I think, but he decided consciously to stay on the easy, > traditional and "safe" old Neo-Sannyas-shore as most Sannyasins do (at > least those, who still call themselves Sannyasins and hang around in > the famous Sannyas-Circles). It seems there is seriousness about the Osho legacy as if he had brought something special and new on the planet, as if modern man would enlighten in a different way than in the time of Buddha because modern mind is different and needed a modern prophet. > Do I need to lighten a candle for Sarlo now, in a Kramic exchange for > my prejudices and opinions regarding him? ;) He is an interesting character in the landscape. :-) > Michael I just found out you like go, look here my group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/game_of_go/ I'm not too good though, my 8 year old son, whom i taught this year already has come from 15 to 3 stones handicap against me in 6 months. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Dezember 2007 18:05 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Er-hard the shep-hard http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nopath/spnew/view/9f4c?i=2 n0by's shepherd's dreams were forced on his bourgeois nature in 1977 ... and they are still 30 years later :-) -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Dezember 2007 18:41 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: One chitchat topic Michael --- Eric wrote: > It seems there is seriousness about the Osho legacy as if he had > brought something special and new on the planet, as if modern man > would enlighten in a different way than in the time of Buddha because > modern mind is different and needed a modern prophet. The master needs to be special, because then the disciple is special. ;) But Osho has indeed brought something new, which many true and fake gurus seem too happy to copy: He is the first in history to use spiritual themes for attracting and feeding the ego. Since then everybody, seeker or peeker, sees spirituality as somthing, which he can "get", "achieve" and "grow in". > [about Sarlo] He is an interesting character in the landscape. :-) You like him? I play Go in the internet now and then - you can get many partners of all strengths on the Japanese IGS (International Go Server) http://www.pandanet.co.jp/English/ Michael -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Dezember 2007 23:29 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: One chitchat topic Michael --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: > > --- Eric wrote: > > It seems there is seriousness about the Osho legacy as if he had > > brought something special and new on the planet, as if modern man > > would enlighten in a different way than in the time of Buddha > > because modern mind is different and needed a modern prophet. > > The master needs to be special, because then the disciple is special. > ;) > > > But Osho has indeed brought something new, which many true and fake > gurus seem too happy to copy: > > He is the first in history to use spiritual themes for attracting and > feeding the ego. Since then everybody, seeker or peeker, sees > spirituality as somthing, which he can "get", "achieve" and "grow in". Next post you tell me Osho is the first one ever to use money, power or sex in such and such way. :-) methinks these chapters (spirituality included) had already lost novelty in classical times. > > [about Sarlo] He is an interesting character in the landscape. :-) > > You like him? He never offered any side to be liked from, very protective, overcautious, inapproachable. > I play Go in the internet now and then - you can get many partners of > all strengths on the Japanese IGS (International Go Server) > http://www.pandanet.co.jp/English/ I'll copy this link on my site, then explore, thank you. > Michael > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von n0by Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Dezember 2007 23:42 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Michael to Sarlo in his group LivingOsho Message #11484 of 12136 Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:08 pm Re: Osho is dead, Swami Alio lives ... sob, sob ? Hi Sarlo, you are soooo far off with your comments, which you try to make looking objective, but which are just without deeper feelings. You like to draw the energy to the mind-level, but that's drawing it down, and has nothing to do with a detached or "free" attitude. It looks like it's an obsession. Or perhaps it's a cry for help. But it's certainly not as wise and as helpful as you think it is. --- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, Sarlo wrote: > Suviro's "sob sob" might be said to be a form of copying, we have seen > it elsewhere. And copy / pasting Osho's words is literally copying, > though no one is pretending even to themselves to act or be like Osho. Using Osho's words and ideas is much more copying than simply pretending to be like Him. > But no one is copying Sarlo here. This is surely a flight of . . . > well, some kind of mind activity. I am not saying this because i am > unique and uncopyable, just it is not happening. You like to play the role of a moderator, don't you? But there is too much judging and correcting others in your moderation for my taste. Like you did with this post. I have observed often, that with such posts you try to steer away from too emotionally loaded topics and try to relativate standpoints which don't fit into the "usual" Sannyas point of view (which is often just a limited vision). As this influence has already sipped deeply into the communication style of this group and into the selection process of it's members, it may look like natural for you and as if nobody is copying. Yet I say: the whole group is mirroring Sarlo, and this is stronger than it was some years ago. The result is some sort of "peacefullness", "silence" and superficiality which comes from unexpressed conflicts and/or from a selection-process which evolves into a spiritual mono-culture. > Blessings to you old warrior, Warrior? Because I am loud-n-clear and expressive? I'm just feeling pain, because the situation is as it is. For a monoculture even an otherwise harmless, normal insect can become dangerous, because natural individual diversity is already gone. Nothing to say about a fat, humming beetle like me. Closing our eyes to our shadows will only create more darkness. Michael -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von n0by Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Dezember 2007 23:49 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Er-hard the shep-hard Hey Eric, do you real think this way? For me it was vice versa: My conditioning, you call 'bourgeois nature' (but it was worse than that) this 'bourgeois nature' was forced on my child like innocence and playfulness. To save my life, to bring me somehow back in tune with my child like innocence and nature and playfulness I escaped with my first wife, marriage 1971, to the mountains as shepherd. I fininshed my carrier, sit on the top of the mountains with big holy books like 'Tibetean Book of Death' and got more health. That was inevitable after nearly my death 1970/71 and awful death in hospital, one week of coma and all this torture with electro shocks that was thaught as healthy for people with immature 'kundaline experiences'. nevertheless your provocative pepper is appreciated as your kind to pay attention for your friends. thank your eric n0by p.s.: maybe you like the new footer after each mail in n0by yahoogroups? :-) after hard sales day in Bamberg - report will follow with picture like usual. --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Paroissien" wrote: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nopath/spnew/view/9f4c?i=2 > n0by's shepherd's dreams were forced on his bourgeois nature in 1977 > ... and they are still 30 years later :-) >   Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Dezember 2007 03:45 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: One chitchat topic Michael I allways find it very interesting what my next post will be, because I don't know it yet. Even while typing I dunno what will come next. The contents of my posts are not determined, before I write them. Everything I understand, feel, have seen from the other person - at the moment - flows into what I write. I like to communicate that way, it's joyful for me, that's why I do it. Perhaps if I was a historian, I would bring in and write about more historic "facts", but I'm not and my "facts" are what I feel and understand and - to a lesser degree - what I think. Even more interesting than what I feel is what I don't feel - i.e. when I recognize that I filtered out something or misinterpreted something. For example where I stopped listening and started reacting. Because there lies a chance to look at one of my many subconscious reactions, there is a chance for me to learn somthing about myself. So, here we are, Eric: --- Eric wrote: > > He is the first in history to use spiritual themes for attracting > > and feeding the ego. Since then everybody, seeker or peeker, sees > > spirituality as somthing, which he can "get", "achieve" and "grow in". > > Next post you tell me Osho is the first one ever to use money, power > or sex in such and such way. :-) methinks these chapters (spirituality > included) had already lost novelty in classical times. You did not understand me completely, Eric, and it looks like, you filtered that out, which you wiped off the table in your answer with the phrase "in such and such way". And you somehow put money, power, sex into the same basket as spirituality (hence the phrase "spirituality included"). Probably that's your picture about Osho - somebody selling money, power, sex and spirituality. That's not something, which I oppose, but that was not my point. Money, power and sex for example I did not mention, but I assume, we can summarize the interest into those three as "ego". What I said was: * Osho attracted the ego with spiritual themes * Osho feeded the ego (let it grow) with spitritual themes * He was the first to do the above with spiritual themes. * Since then many are copying this setup. > > http://www.pandanet.co.jp/English/ > I'll copy this link on my site, then explore, thank you. Wellcome. T he client they have and the interface may need some experience, until you feel at home, but it's worth to try it because of the many players of all strength - from beginner to master - which can be met or watched on this site. Professional contest are often mirrored there life. Greetings Michael __._,_.___ -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Dezember 2007 04:07 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Michael to Sarlo in his group LivingOsho Noby, referring to the Yahoo groups guidelines http://groups.yahoo.com/local/guidelines.html which say under point 11: # You cannot re-post or re-transmit content that belongs to another user without that user's permission. A Groups owner or moderator (or any other user) cannot re-post or re-transmit Groups content to any other site unless the person has the explicit permission of every group member whose content is being re-posted or re-transmitted. Consequently you are put under moderation. Kabir as moderator -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Dezember 2007 04:40 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Michael to Sarlo in his group LivingOsho Hi N0by, personally I found it interesting to reread my old post to Sarlo (which I still find pretty valid), but how you do it is somehow like a sniper does his shooting: not showing yourself, no comment before the shot, no comment afterwards. You seem to run on automatic - you find something to crosspost, hence you crosspost. No respect for the rules this group runs under, no respect for other persons, no respect for the situation here and now. When you do that with the LivingOsho group the question arises: when will he do it with the nopath group also? If you are not sure, that you can respect the rules in this group, it might be better to leave now. You are grown up enough to take responseability for what you do, at least that's what you demand from the members of the N0by group. So stop these games of a three year old, please. For my taste you have run and re-run and re-run and re-run and re-run and re-run and re-run this trip long enough. There is not freedom without respecting the freedom of others. Kabir -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Dezember 2007 04:54 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Noby, you claim, that I am protecting my Ego-Rights? No, I'm just trying to break you out of your self-made prison of fixed and frozen behaviour patterns (and consequently a prison of fixed, frozen feelings, also). Not an easy task, believe me. But when my heart gives me a job to do, then I do it until told otherwise. Perhaps this way I will live threehundred years, because I might not be allowed to leave before the job is done. So thank you for prolonging my life ;) Michael   Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Dezember 2007 08:32 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Liberation: 4 steadiness Good morning Eric, it is sunday morning, still night outside, the house is silent. A cup of freshly brewn coffee is sitting beside my monitor, so it's time to answer nondual comments. :) Please let's first read again the posting I'm referring to: your posting I'm reminded of a book, which I've enjoyed about 30 years ago, "Tertium Organum", by Ouspensky. Allthough Ouspensky had not met Guirdijeff at the tim he wrote it, he did a good job to explain what will be happen, when levels of heighened awareness are reached. He said something to the effect, that stepping onto the next higher level of awareness would be like adding another dimension to one's perception, and he gave very nice und understandable examples of how a dog might see the world - including why they bark and run after cars and other moving objects ;) So I like to compare nonduality with the ability to see the world in three dimensions, while "normal" thoughts and emotions are giving us a twodimensional experience. With this analogy in mind, another example appears before me: the development of painting. We all know the drawings of the stone-age probably, which had been found in the caves for example La Grotte de Lascaux . The pictures are basically two-dimensional, but now and then the painter has tried to add perspective, like in that image , mainly by overlapping and letting the formost animal become a little bigger and have more color. The Roman painters already had some sense for perspective drawing, but they had not yet grasped it completely, as shown in this drawing  (from around 100 years after Christ). With the breakdown of the Roman empire perspective techniques got lost again and had to be learned again from scratch, which can be seen in that drawing  from 1506 aD. But all the time, reality was reality and was conceived by the artists of their times in three dimensions, as can be seen in greek and roman sculptures. Only drawing and painting lacked behind - because of the two dimension of a canvas, the third dimension is allways sort of an illusion. Nondual language has to be such an illusion, too, because language, thinking, feeling are lacking the dimensions of nondual existence. As well as one cannot put a third dimension on a piece of paper or pour water onto a table without spilling most, one cannot pour much of the nondual experience into language. Of course, when somebody is in that heightened state of consciousness, where nonduality is a natural point of vie w, his/her statements may (or may not) be full of nondual expressions, but nondual language can not and will not bring a higher state of consciousness. What will come out only is something, which is unreal, impossible . > The only constant in the universe is change, > or shall we say the only constant of perception is change, > but there is no difference in the two statements, the universe exists > only as perceived/considered. This sentence indirectly assumes that there is an observer, and this observer/perceiver/considerer is apriori seen as constant. > Moods are the negative side of change, from mood to mood, > roller-coaster of superficial emotions and within one persistent mood, > a deeper negativity, the burden of yearning to realize one's dream or > find a meaning to one's life.< br> There is no negativity in the realm of nondual reality. Negativity and positivity are a dualistic projections. > Liberation, devoid of moods, finds you in the same peaceful > disposition morning after morning, the steadiness looks as if there > was a quality of attention that finds its foundation deeper that the > restlessness of the environment, unconcerned by its demands, reminding > you every time attention is solicited by the body or an external call > "this is not me", and drop it. Liberation will not find me anywhere, because the "me" and the "you" is the result of a deep social and linguistic conditioning, and liberation and conditing are existential opposites (i.e. one is the absense of the other). > It is light and heavy at the same time, cannot be moved to the panic > or enthusiasm of others or crowds, or the fear for one's health, but > keep stimulated and enthusiastic in the million signals of perception, > it is devoid of concentration, it does not seek to stay on an object > or a thought more than a second. For me this sounds a little as the recording of a glimpse into nondual reality. If that was your experience, you probably tried to hold on to that glimpse with memory and thinking (as can be deducted from your earlier sentences). Greetings Michael __._,_.___ -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Dezember 2007 09:10 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Liberation: 4 steadiness --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: > > Good morning Eric, > > it is sunday morning, still night outside, the house is silent. A cup > of freshly brewn coffee is sitting beside my monitor, so it's time to > answer nondual comments. > :) You betcha, i just read rapidly the other posts but will have my espresso before answering any of them. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Dezember 2007 09:30 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Er-hard the shep-hard --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "n0by" wrote: > > Hey Eric, Hey Erhard, > do you real think this way? Of course not, it's just a mode of addressing you. For me it was vice versa: My conditioning, > you call 'bourgeois nature' (but it was worse than that) this > 'bourgeois nature' was forced on my child like innocence and playfulness. I wonder how much of that is true, to remember the state of innocence is to be liberated from old age and death. There are not several movements to come centered, peaceful and liberated, just this one: remember the wondrous feeling of those days. > To save my life, to bring me somehow back in tune with my child like > innocence and nature and playfulness I escaped with my first wife, > marriage 1971, to the mountains as shepherd. Yeah i know that, i said 1977 as a 30 year mark. > I fininshed my carrier, sit on the top of the mountains with big holy > books like 'Tibetean Book of Death' and got more health. > > That was inevitable after nearly my death 1970/71 and awful death in > hospital, one week of coma and all this torture with electro shocks > that was thaught as healthy for people with immature 'kundaline > experiences'. Monstrosity or particularly terrible sickness experience, keep in mind the commonness of our life, we all go through exactly the same phases. > nevertheless your provocative pepper is appreciated as your kind to > pay attention for your friends. Yes, the first private email you sent me in 2002 after an exchange on the net started with "Eric you're alive". > thank your > > eric > > n0by > > p.s.: maybe you like the new footer after each mail in n0by yahoogroups? I'll check it. :-) > :-) > > after hard sales day in Bamberg - report will follow with picture like > usual. > > --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Paroissien" > wrote: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nopath/spnew/view/9f4c?i=2 > > n0by's shepherd's dreams were forced on his bourgeois nature in 1977 > > ... and they are still 30 years later :-) > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Dezember 2007 09:44 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: One chitchat topic Michael --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: > > I allways find it very interesting what my next post will be, because > I don't know it yet. Even while typing I dunno what will come next. > > The contents of my posts are not determined, before I write them. > Everything I understand, feel, have seen from the other person - at > the moment - flows into what I write. I like to communicate that way, > it's joyful for me, that's why I do it. Perhaps if I was a historian, > I would bring in and write about more historic "facts", but I'm not > and my "facts" are what I feel and understand and - to a lesser degree > - what I think. > > > Even more interesting than what I feel is what I don't feel - i.e. > when I recognize that I filtered out something or misinterpreted something. > For example where I stopped listening and started reacting. Because > there lies a chance to look at one of my many subconscious reactions, > there is a chance for me to learn somthing about myself. OK then. > So, here we are, Eric: > > --- Eric wrote: > > > He is the first in history to use spiritual themes for attracting > > > and feeding the ego. Since then everybody, seeker or peeker, sees > > > spirituality as somthing, which he can "get", "achieve" and "grow > in". > > > > Next post you tell me Osho is the first one ever to use money, power > > or sex in such and such way. :-) methinks these chapters > > (spirituality > > included) had already lost novelty in classical times. > > You did not understand me completely, Eric, and it looks like, you > filtered that out, which you wiped off the table in your answer with > the phrase "in such and such way". And you somehow put money, power, > sex into the same basket as spirituality (hence the phrase > "spirituality included"). Probably that's your picture about Osho - > somebody selling money, power, sex and spirituality. That's not > something, which I oppose, but that was not my point. Money, power and > sex for example I did not mention, but I assume, we can summarize the > interest into those three as "ego". > > What I said was: > > * Osho attracted the ego with spiritual themes This is a world where people move on attraction - repulsion alone, not on kindness of spirit (except for rare cases), coca-cola or Madonna do exactly the same. > * Osho feeded the ego (let it grow) with spitritual themes This is an angle (ego growth and size) that he emphasized, i wouldn't be so bold as to teach you there are no sizes, but circumstances, and whatever comparisons of people's qualities liberation "lies somewhere else". > * He was the first to do the above with spiritual themes. How can that be, everything has been used already, every evil is thought of by all, but finding peace is not a device. > * Since then many are copying this setup. Yes, you can say that about German or French cars. Spirituality is what happens within a person, in petto, in one's intimacy, there is not a whiff of spirituality when Osho builds an empire or decides strategies against the arch-villain ego, or speaks with his know-it-all attitude on a throne. Neither did Ramana utter any spirituality in his poverty. Now if you are a catholic Michael and say the Pope represents God on earth, i say "sure", amen to that, no problem; i respect it because i have no beef with Osho, the Pope or Ramana. > > > http://www.pandanet.co.jp/English/ > > I'll copy this link on my site, then explore, thank you. > > Wellcome. The client they have and the interface may need some > experience, until you feel at home, but it's worth to try it because > of the many players of all strength - from beginner to master - which > can be met or watched on this site. Professional contest are often > mirrored there life. Actually what also makes it particularly interesting as compared to KGS for example is the access to the Japanese world. > Greetings > Michael > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Dezember 2007 09:48 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Noby, you claim, that I am protecting my Ego-Rights? --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: > > No, I'm just trying to break you out of your self-made prison of fixed > and frozen behaviour patterns (and consequently a prison of fixed, > frozen feelings, also). > > Not an easy task, believe me. But when my heart gives me a job to do, > then I do it until told otherwise. Perhaps this way I will live > threehundred years, because I might not be allowed to leave before the > job is done. > > So thank you for prolonging my life ;) > > > Michael Erhard most of all had been hit full face by Esther's message, not that she is wise liberated or a saint, but the way her stubborn life goes through the whole fight is something he's been .. lurking on the side dreaming of terrified about trying to forget and wake up right into it the next morning questioning and questioning -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Dezember 2007 11:02 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Liberation: 4 steadiness --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: > > Good morning Eric, > > it is sunday morning, still night outside, the house is silent. A cup > of freshly brewn coffee is sitting beside my monitor, so it's time to > answer nondual comments. > :) > > > > Please let's first read again the posting I'm referring to: your > posting > > > I'm reminded of a book, which I've enjoyed about 30 years ago, > "Tertium Organum", by Ouspensky. Allthough Ouspensky had not met > Guirdijeff at the tim he wrote it, he did a good job to explain what > will be happen, when levels of heighened awareness are reached. He > said something to the effect, that stepping onto the next higher level > of awareness would be like adding another dimension to one's > perception, and he gave very nice und understandable examples of how a > dog might see the world - including why they bark and run after cars > and other moving objects ;) > > So I like to compare nonduality with the ability to see the world in > three dimensions, while "normal" thoughts and emotions are giving us a > twodimensional experience. With this analogy in mind, another example > appears before me: the development of painting. > > We all know the drawings of the stone-age probably, which had been > found in the caves for example La Grotte de Lascaux > . The > pictures are basically two-dimensional, but now and then the painter > has tried to add perspective, like in that image > , > mainly by overlapping and letting the formost animal become a little > bigger and have more color. Indeed in the picture you show if the artists did this as a 'composition', designing in advance both animals in relation to each other (and not some random superimposition of another artist after 150 years), the work is impressive. > The Roman painters already had some sense for perspective drawing, but > they had not yet grasped it completely, as shown in this drawing It looks quite achieved to me. _rom1.jpg> (from around 100 years after Christ). With the breakdown of > the Roman empire perspective techniques got lost again and had to be > learned again from scratch, which can be seen in that drawing > _rom2.jpg> from 1506 aD. But all the time, reality was reality and was > conceived by the artists of their times in three dimensions, as can be > seen in greek and roman sculptures. Only drawing and painting lacked > behind - because of the two dimension of a canvas, the third dimension > is allways sort of an illusion. it is an effort to convey to distant people or to later generations. > Nondual language has to be such an illusion, too, because language, > thinking, feeling are lacking the dimensions of nondual existence. As > well as one cannot put a third dimension on a piece of paper or pour > water onto a table without spilling most, one cannot pour much of the > nondual experience into language. Yes. > Of course, when somebody is in that heightened state of consciousness, > where nonduality is a natural point of view, his/her statements may > (or may not) be full of nondual expressions, but nondual language can > not and will not bring a higher state of consciousness. What will come > out only is something, which is unreal, impossible > schung.jpg> . OK > > The only constant in the universe is change, or shall we say the > > only constant of perception is change, but there is no difference in > > the two statements, the universe exists only as > > perceived/considered. > > This sentence indirectly assumes that there is an observer, and this > observer/perceiver/considerer is apriori seen as constant. It is trying to point to a constant quality of what is devoid of quality, trying to convey the fact, "how come i wake up the same, free and light every morning when i live in an unstable environment (city, people's meanness, etc)". > > Moods are the negative side of change, from mood to mood, > > roller-coaster of superficial emotions and within one persistent > > mood, a deeper negativity, the burden of yearning to realize one's > > dream or find a meaning to one's life. > > There is no negativity in the realm of nondual reality. Negativity and > positivity are a dualistic projections. Right. > > Liberation, devoid of moods, finds you in the same peaceful > > disposition morning after morning, the steadiness looks as if there > > was a quality of attention that finds its foundation deeper that the > > restlessness of the environment, unconcerned by its demands, > > reminding you every time attention is solicited by the body or an > > external call "this is not me", and drop it. > > Liberation will not find me anywhere, because the "me" and the "you" > is the result of a deep social and linguistic conditioning, and > liberation and conditing are existential opposites (i.e. one is the > absense of the other). OK > > It is light and heavy at the same time, cannot be moved to the panic > > or enthusiasm of others or crowds, or the fear for one's health, but > > keep stimulated and enthusiastic in the million signals of > > perception, it is devoid of concentration, it does not seek to stay > > on an object or a thought more than a second. > > For me this sounds a little as the recording of a glimpse into nondual > reality. > If that was your experience, you probably tried to hold on to that > glimpse with memory and thinking (as can be deducted from your earlier > sentences). The nondual fact always looks imperfect in the other guy. ;-) > Greetings Thank you for the historical and artistic reference Michael, this makes a nice post to read and to ponder upon. > Michael -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von swsuviro Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Dezember 2007 14:30 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Michael to Sarlo in his group LivingOsho --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: > Hi N0by, > >personally I found it interesting to reread my old post to Sarlo (which >I still find pretty valid), but how you do it is somehow like a sniper >does his shooting: not showing yourself, no comment before the shot, no >comment afterwards. Yes - old post from last Sylvester, comes soon again .. what ya doing here guys ? playing cards ? poker ? -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Dezember 2007 16:15 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Michael to Sarlo in his group LivingOsho --- Ali wrote: > what ya doing here guys ? > playing cards ? poker ? Watching the final of the snooker UK Championship in a livestream on eurosport.de O'Sullivan is playing like the devil himself and leading 4:0, while Maguire is making a face as if he already knows that he has lost his soul. What is to be learned from this: never play against the devil while you still have a soul. Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von swamiali@aol.com Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Dezember 2007 17:05 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: Re: [nopath] Re: Michael to Sarlo in his group LivingOsho           jivano wrote: O'Sullivan is playing like the devil himself and leading 4:0, while Maguire is making a face as if he already knows that he has lost his soul. What is to be learned from this: never play against the devil while you still have a soul.                            Yes - i see - now it comes even worse.                           Leads already 6:0.                           Better say 'Thy will shall be done',                           if one plays with the devil.                                -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Dezember 2007 22:21 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Michael to Sarlo in his group LivingOsho --- Ali wrote: > Better say 'Thy will shall be done', > if one plays with the devil. I see. ;) -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Jeeva Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 10:20 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Perception of the world by non- human beings It is very interesting to be here and listening. From my school days, sometimes I used to think about how these non-human species birds,animals,insects percieve the world around them. Does a bird see the same world through its eye as human beings? Does it sees the same size , shape , color as human perceives? How does a mosquito locates the blood vein. Does its eyes work like a scanner by sending special optical waves and recieving the feed back signals and its brain process the image to locate them. ie.human skin is not a hindrance at all and it can see thru..the skin ? like that Can some one provide any links for further study from scientists point of view and also from enlightened persons' point of view. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Kabir Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 10:30 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: Re: [nopath] Perception of the world by non- human beings --- Jeeva wrote: > Can some one provide any links for further study from scientists point > of view and also from enlightened persons' point of view. Please define what an 'enlightened person' is for you. Greetings Kabir -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 11:44 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Jeeva" wrote: > > It is very interesting to be here and listening. > > From my school days, sometimes I used to think about how these > non-human species birds,animals,insects percieve the world around them. > > Does a bird see the same world through its eye as human beings? > Does it sees the same size , shape , color as human perceives? > > How does a mosquito locates the blood vein. > Does its eyes work like a scanner by sending special optical waves and > recieving the feed back signals and its brain process the image to > locate them. > > ie.human skin is not a hindrance at all and it can see thru..the skin > ? like that > > Can some one provide any links for further study from scientists point > of view and also from enlightened persons' point of view. Unless you provide a link to your heart, all these remain a mystery. Michael is not kidding when he says "please define 'enlightened person'?" in this definition lies all your wishes, all you ever want to be all your realization. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 11:57 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, Kabir wrote: > > --- Jeeva wrote: > > > Can some one provide any links for further study from scientists > > point of view and also from enlightened persons' point of view. > > Please define what an 'enlightened person' is for you. > > Greetings > Kabir The poison is slow and insidious, worse from a native point of view, the rotten concepts the Hindu culture has sabotaged their heart with; we can see it here in some of our European fellows who came back from India ruined and incapable of purifying themselves from that gangrene. The monument people have erected in their heart, called enlightenment, awakening, realization, is a sad jail. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Kabir Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 12:39 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings The root of the poison (as you call it) or stupidity (as I call it) is the idea to be able to improve oneself or at least decide how one has to be trained, teached and grown. And that can be seen everywhere. India has at least accepted and assimilated that one needs help. Where Indians fails is their believe and trust in old traditional techniques only - that's like building the internet out of tubes, through which we exchanged stone tablets. Most westeners accept modern techniques also, but they fail, because they think, they are the one to do the growth. The eastern grass is waiting for the cow to raise it, the western grass wants to pull itself up into the sky. Both ways are the results of the social/cultural conditionings, and are defended agressively as well as stubbornly, because of fear of the unknowable und uncontrollable life. And regarding pride, arrogance and ignorance westeners and easteners are in the same boat. My 20 million ( 2 cents plus inflation ) -- Kabir - http://kabir.de -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 13:42 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings Looking forward to another of your messages with metaphors, science, art and links. :-) I'll try too. --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, Kabir wrote: ... > My 20 million ( 2 cents plus inflation ) > -- > Kabir - http://kabir.de > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Jeeva Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 15:36 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, Kabir wrote: > Please define what an 'enlightened person' is for you. hmm.well you hit the nail on the right spot :-) To be honest , I am in a perplexed state to define 'Enlightenment' through the experiences I have gone through until now. But it is a fact that one start searching after having some intellectual understanding of what 'enlightenment' means. From intellectual point of view (not real experience),a simple definition is that an enlightened person is one who had the experience of a state called enlightenment. so at first I started the journey having the intellectual understanding that enlightenment is a no-thought state . But after having few no-thought moments, I can observe that even though there is 'no-thought' in conscious state I can observe emotions like anger,fear, attraction towards something or person are residing inside even without their presence That emotions are not the result of current moment consciousness or actions or environmental situations but that is due to memory imprints in subconscious.I came to this understanding after finding that there are so many hidden feelings that are being reflected in dreams.Not only hidden feelings but strange dreams which are perplexing and difficult to understand.Strange places , Strange persons, flying in air(not in in a flight) just body is flying in rising altitude and I see the earth below from there, sitting silently before some Master but having a feeling that why I have to sit before him ,some woman come and deeply kiss on forehead for certain period of time etc...even n0by,mima,esther has come and I am taking them to unknown place...In the morning I am much disturbed because I couldn't understand intellectually and now I have a let go attitude So my next search continued in understanding emotions and dreams deeply to the possible extent.At this point I had the intellectual understanding that 'Enlightenment is a state , not only no-thought but void of emotions in conscious moments and also void of repressed emotions in dreams 'which might be possible (in my view) when one become aware of subconcious mind by penetrating it deeply... I feel right now, I am searching in this area only ... After having some no- thought moments and some blissful experiences I claimed enlightenment and I had aggressive attitude towards persons who are not ready to accept my experience .I felt that whole world is in darkness and it is my responsibility to awaken the people:-))) I can remember some verbal transactions with you in N0by group. My aggression at that point is not because I am against you but out of frustration that why these people accept my experience But after that I felt , I have the problem in relating with other people and worked on that area.ie...I felt I have attained enlightenment only problem is relating with others...lol After certain point ,I cannot remember when ,but I started feeling that I am stuck in unnecessary verbal quarrels and having to prove some thing to the world.Gradually I had a feeling that without reaching destiny , my attention is diverted on proving to the world that I had certain experiences...and also can help the people to attain enlightenment state...heheheee When I become conscious of this fact , I reduced my online interactions to a possible extent. Apart from this due to meeting of some persons who have siddhi powers in unexpected moments (not my conscious choice)who reveal some past incidents and even foretell ceratin things ..my enlightenment definition at least to my understanding had changed Right now ' I feel that Enlightenment is a state of no-thought, no-hidden suppressed or repressed feelings,can know other persons past and future even without utteration of a single word from the seeker'... I don't know how my enlightenment definition to myself will change in due course ;-) -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Jeeva Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 15:47 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Jeeva" wrote: > > hmm.well you hit the nail on the right spot :-) > > Atleast you people are so strong in your enlightenment claim .LOL. If you could offer some guidelines on the path , it would be helpful for me.Remember Jeeva is not a Master now but a seeker on the path.:-) -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Jeeva Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 16:01 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Jeeva" wrote: > > --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Jeeva" wrote: > > > > hmm.well you hit the nail on the right spot :-) And most important Indian concept... For an enlightened person there is no re-birth. Ofcourse at this point it is just a concept to me but why one have to say that is absolutely false... many Indian spiritual Gurus mentioned that.as Mukthi... Liberation.... -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Kabir Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 16:52 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: Re: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings -- Jeeva said: > Atleast you people are so strong in your enlightenment claim .LOL. You mean N0by and his Monsters? I don't claim even to know what it is. And I'm happy that enlightenment is no longer on my shopping list. Had cost me a lot of money and time to run after it, believe me. A good BMW is cheaper to get than enlightenment costs just to miss it. > If you could offer some guidelines on the path , it would be helpful > for me. Guidelines? Where do you want to go, then? What do you want to do? I have some experience with computers, ice cream parlors in Munich and making profound mistakes. In which of these areas may I help you? If it's enlightenment you are after, better ask somebody who claims some expertise in this area. I am also not very useful at homosexuality, sado-maso and bizarre games, starting relationships with women (they always started them with me), filing tax reports, making friends with policemen and many other things which my subconscious has just decided to forget. > Remember Jeeva is not a Master now but a seeker on the path.:-) Which path? From where to where? Perhaps you entered into the wrong Yahoo-group? Have a second look at the name of the group, if you please. And what are you seeking? I mean - don't become too much insulted, but you even don't seem to know what you are seeking. Or do you? I am a master, a self declared one. I know very well and can do very well and I'm able to teach - that's how I define mastery. Hence I declare myself to be a master with digital computers - especially software development. But that's not what you seek, huh ? -- Kabir - http://kabir.de -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Kabir Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 16:57 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: Re: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings -- Jeeva added: > For an enlightened person there is no re-birth. Then enlightenment is not for me. I love to live. After some short period of hardship and learning (say 60 years) it becomes so wonderful... No, no. No enlightenment for me, if that obstructs any possible rebirth. No chance. Forgettitt. The Indians can keep it. -- Kabir - http://kabir.de   Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von swamiali@aol.com Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 17:10 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: Re: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings                         dhyaan_prabha@yahoo.com wrote: And most important Indian concept... For an enlightened person there is no re-birth. Ofcourse at this point it is just a concept to me but why one have to say that is absolutely false... many Indian spiritual Gurus mentioned that.as Mukthi... Liberation....                hm, why not being a bit more intelligent ?                     first they create the problem of reincarnation,                            and then they give you the solution.                      For an enlightened person there is no re-birth.                    But for an unenlightened person there is no re-birth too.                        How does this feel ? -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 18:05 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, Kabir wrote: > > -- Jeeva added: > > For an enlightened person there is no re-birth. > > Then enlightenment is not for me. > I love to live. After some short period of hardship and learning (say > 60 years) it becomes so wonderful... There's a trick, one looks around and everybody's gone, everything is gone, good old regrets are gone, tenacious desires are gone, just left on my own in the middle of my sea on a sunny day, not a wind to stir my sail ... yet i blow a fart and say: "wow! still some things can happen!" > No, no. No enlightenment for me, > if that obstructs any possible rebirth. > No chance. Forgettitt. > > The Indians can keep it. > -- > Kabir - http://kabir.de > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Kabir Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 18:15 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: Re: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings -- Thus wrote swamiali@aol.com: > first they create the problem of reincarnation, and then they give you > the solution. > > For an enlightened person there is no re-birth. > But for an unenlightened person there is no re-birth too. How does > this feel ? "they" - are these all masters and gurus, or only Indians, or only all those others except Osho? Because what you say sounds rather cynical, and as if you assume, that gurus have rather egoistic motives and fool their listeners mainly with their teachings. Yet at the same time you are still using your Sannyas name. This is puzzeling, and may be even double-bind. So how do you feel about your master Osho for example in these aspects? -- Kabir - http://kabir.de Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von swamiali@aol.com Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 18:28 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: Re: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings                        ka@khidr.net wrote: "they" - are these all masters and gurus, or only Indians, or only all those others except Osho? Because what you say sounds rather cynical, and as if you assume, that gurus have rather egoistic motives and fool their listeners mainly with their teachings. Yet at the same time you are still using your Sannyas name. This is puzzeling, and may be even double-bind. So how do you feel about your master Osho for example in these aspects?                 first of all - you should not interfere,                  if i write here something to somebody - it's not your business.               second - if something is puzzling for you,                            or double-blind, it's not my problem either.                        If there is a master for me or not,                        that's not your business either.   -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 18:37 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Rubik's cube, java applet Michael you might know, I download here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Rubik's_Cube_software#Solvers it is ACube - (Java, standalone) and unzip i find no application, no executable, just a bunch of folders and files with a "jar" extension file among others. How do i run this? Thank you -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Kabir Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 19:23 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: Re: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings -- Ali said to Kabir: > first of all - you should not interfere, if i write here something to > somebody - it's not your business. You should not tell me what I should and what I shouldn't. And it's not your business what I regard as my business. > second - if something is puzzling for you, or double-blind, it's not > my problem either. Neither is your negativity and bad mood my problem, Charly. > If there is a master for me or not, > that's not your business either. Your ego needs a lot of negativity to feel strong. Protecting yourself with soo many and soo big NOs, isn't that rather stressful? And behind all that virtual armor such a tiny little thing, full of mistrust and fear ... fear to fail, fear to miss? Again? And again? And without the hope for rebirth also? This trap is called the intellect. And see, how much this intellect NEEDS to fight, just to feel a little alife. That's not strength and that's not braveness either, that's just a tiny pathetic intellect, cornered by life and the consequences of it's own concepts. Your master is doing a good job to bring you slowly, slowly to the point where you have to face yourself. -- Kabir - http://kabir.de   Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von swamiali@aol.com Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 19:37 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: Re: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings               Kabirski wrote: > second - if something is puzzling for you, > or double-blind, it's not my problem either. Neither is your negativity and bad mood my problem, Charly.             Oh Beloved All-Know-it-better,                    i have a very good mood,                    why don't keep your judgements for your self? >> If  there is a master for me or not, >> that's not your business either. >Your ego needs a lot of negativity to feel strong. >Protecting yourself with soo many and soo big NOs, >isn't that rather stressful?                               jaja, the broken grammophon record still not repaired ?          >>And behind all that virtual armor such a tiny little >>thing, full of mistrust and fear ... fear to fail, fear to miss? >>Again? And again? And without the hope for rebirth also? >>This trap is called the intellect. And see, how much this i>>ntellect NEEDS to fight, just to feel a little alife. >>That's not strength and that's not braveness either, >>that's just a tiny pathetic intellect, cornered by life > Michael you might know, > I download here > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Rubik's_Cube_software#Solvers > it is > ACube - (Java, standalone) > and unzip i find no application, no executable, just a bunch of > folders and files with a "jar" extension file among others. > How do i run this? Usually with a double-click on the .jar - if you have a Java-runtime installed and associated with the .jar - Extension. Proper Java runtime should be on the Mirosoft-site assuming that you run Windows), if you don't have it installed. > Thank you NP -- Kabir - http://kabir.de -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Kabir Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 19:48 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Flowers for Ali Well, Ali, better think again, wether this list is a place for you. I will not allow that you tell anybody on this list to keep his stuff to himself. Then you'd rather keep your judgements to yourself - at some other place. I will not say it twice. Kabir as moderator   Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von swamiali@aol.com Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 20:02 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: Re: [nopath] Flowers for Ali   Well, Ali, better think again, wether this list is a place for you. I will not allow that you tell anybody on this list to keep his stuff to himself. Then you'd rather keep your judgements to yourself - at some other place. I will not say it twice. Kabir as moderator                     What you want Kabir ?                      You come here talking about my 'negativity' and 'bad mood'.                      Your usual 'ego-armour' stuff.                        You want me to go ?                       No problem, then you can play cards again without me ... -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 20:17 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Flowers for Ali --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, swamiali@... wrote: ... > What you want Kabir ? > > You come here talking about my 'negativity' and 'bad > mood'. > Your usual 'ego-armour' stuff. > > You want me to go ? > No problem, then you can play cards again without me > ... How often do you leave people and places then? can you build something? friendship? couple? professional situation?   Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von swamiali@aol.com Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 20:38 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: Re: [nopath] Re: Flowers for Ali                  ericparoissien@gmail.com wrote: How often do you leave people and places then? can you build something? friendship? couple? professional situation?                 okay, Eric, 5 questionsmarks ...                   i have left people and stay with people,                      with places the same.                      you want to build here something?                     i know Michael maybe already a bit longer than you,                    and i know his game -                    it has not changed much since the first day.                    and if i would not like it or him, i would not be here.                                       basically it is a game where you have to be truthful                      to yourself - and where the 'Verarschung' starts,                      you have to leave, but you will not 'leave' yourself,                         got it ?   -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 20:45 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Flowers for Ali --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, swamiali@... wrote: > > > > > > > _ericparoissien@..._ (mailto:ericparoissien@...) wrote: > > How often do you leave people and places then? > can you build something? > friendship? couple? professional situation? > > > > > okay, Eric, 5 questionsmarks ... > > i have left people and stay with people, > with places the same. > > you want to build here something? > > i know Michael maybe already a bit longer than you, > and i know his game - > it has not changed much since the first day. > and if i would not like it or him, i would not be here. > > basically it is a game where you have to be truthful > to yourself - and where the 'Verarschung' starts, > you have to leave, but you will not 'leave' yourself, > got it ? Your coming here kind of contradicts all you say above; there is either no juice left in an orange or there is.   Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von swamiali@aol.com Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 20:49 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: Re: [nopath] Re: Flowers for Ali                  ericparoissien@gmail.com wrote: Your coming here kind of contradicts all you say above; there is either no juice left in an orange or there is.                  take it as a mystery that i am here -                   and take it as a mystery when im gone, okay ? __._,_.___ -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 21:39 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Flowers for Ali --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, swamiali@... wrote: > > > > _ericparoissien@..._ (mailto:ericparoissien@...) wrote: > > Your coming here kind of contradicts all you say above; there is > either no juice left in an orange or there is. > > > > > take it as a mystery that i am here - > and take it as a mystery when im gone, okay ? Same for the credibility of your words... a mystery. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 22:07 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Interesting mixture Half a personality of N0by, another half of Ozay, add some Russian mafia behaviour and top the whole with the complete inability to ask for something. And everything under "control" of an intellect which is by it's very nature not the least able to handle the energy. I did never play you for a sucker, Ali. A saw your personality structure and your energy and I told you right at our first meeting what I think you would need: discipline. You din't want to hear. So by now, some years later, the energy has already cooked your brain into something which is nearly unusable (except for beating around, provoking and fighting against windmills). What you show here is a cry for help - without admitting it IMO. You tell me, I have not changed, because I allways say the same things to you? Strange logic. Easy excuses not to look at yourself. Go on, continue doing your thing. Become louder and louder each year. Yur are right on your way - into the nearest mental asylum. And the reason for all that? You don't trust your feelings regarding people. Hence you cannot trust anybody. You can trust only your thinking. With R. it was the same as it is with me. Your heart sends you somewhere, but then your mind starts fighting with everything possible and impossible. What to do? Tell me. How was it possible to make contact with such a person?   Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von swamiali@aol.com Gesendet: Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 22:21 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: Re: [nopath] Interesting mixture                     bye - enjoy your boring repeating games without me. Von: Swamiali@aol.com [mailto:Swamiali@aol.com] Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Dezember 2007 08:02 An: n0by@n0by.de Betreff: Re: AW: [nopath] Interesting mixture   Na, dann viel Spass weiterhin mit Sarlo und Sackratshita!   n0by Erhard                         na mobsi bobsi,               hört man wieder mal was von dir -               na ja, wenigstens bin ich nicht so ein masochist                    wie du und lass mich in meiner free speech                     vom großen Meister, der sich seit jahren                      gebetsmühlenartig wiederholt -                    und in wirklichkeit nur der kleine Michi ist                       moderieren und kastrieren   .... haha                                 ps. schönen gruss auch an Michi,                                  wie ich dich kenne wirst du das briefchen                                  als braver postbote bestimmt weiterleiten ... -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Dezember 2007 09:29 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Interesting mixture --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, swamiali@... wrote: > > > > > bye - enjoy your boring repeating games without me. The illusion that life as anything to offer apart from cycles and repetitions, and that someone has the power to change anything. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Kabir Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Dezember 2007 10:09 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: Re: [nopath] Re: Interesting mixture Eric commented: > The illusion that life as anything to offer apart from cycles and > repetitions, and that someone has the power to change anything. Yet, illusions and wishes are defended, as if our life depends on it. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Jeeva Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Dezember 2007 13:30 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, Kabir wrote: > A good BMW is cheaper to get than enlightenment costs just to miss it. When one is focusing the energy to 'know' without balancing the essential 'earning' to keep oneself alive and to meet basic needs, such feelings are unavoidable in my view > I am also not very useful at homosexuality, sado-maso and bizarre >games, starting relationships with women (they always started them >with me, filing tax reports, making friends with policemen and many >other things which my subconscious has just decided to forget. I am not seeking any answers from you for the above. > Which path? From where to where? Perhaps you entered into the wrong >Yahoo-group? Have a second look at the name of the group, if you >please. ofcourse there is no fixed path of movement.Yet for each person, life is series of happenings which is termed as life path. Just I asked ,can you share your understanding as there are more possibilities that you might be aware of. >And what are you seeking? I mean - don't become too much insulted, but >you even don't seem to know what you are seeking. Or do you? nothing to be insulted ..literally i am seeking Mukthi... But I don't know what it might be in 'experience' > I am a master, a self declared one. I know very well and can do very >well and I'm able to teach - that's how I define mastery. Hence I >declare myself to be a master with digital computers - especially >software development. > I can also teach engineering subjects and software related subjects But I am not claiming any mastership.Only thing is I have the ability to understand when I am focusing on a subject and put sincere efforts in making others understand ...but I am not an all knower on any of these areas..but just because I am helping them to understand they call me Master...it is just a term ..it doesn't reflect the reality of my limited knowing > But that's not what you seek, huh ? true -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Dezember 2007 14:17 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Jeeva" wrote: ... > I can also teach engineering subjects and software related subjects > But I am not claiming any mastership.Only thing is I have the ability > to understand when I am focusing on a subject and put sincere efforts > in making others understand ...but I am not an all knower on any of > these areas..but just because I am helping them to understand they > call me Master...it is just a term ..it doesn't reflect the reality of > my limited knowing It's a real talent, paradoxically teaching involves very keen listening, more listening that talking; i taught for two decades. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Jeeva Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Dezember 2007 14:22 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Paroissien" wrote: > It's a real talent, paradoxically teaching involves very keen > listening, more listening that talking; i taught for two decades. > It is interesting to know this information what do you have taught Eric.. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Dezember 2007 15:17 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Jeeva" wrote: > > --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Paroissien" > wrote: > > It's a real talent, paradoxically teaching involves very keen > > listening, more listening that talking; i taught for two decades. > > > > It is interesting to know this information what do you have taught > Eric.. I taught French, an interesting class was with drop-off (curriculum failure) teenagers that parents wanted me to keep off the streets to avoid mischief but had no interest in learning anything, they are one of my best memories, interesting characters, i taught them one year. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Dezember 2007 17:14 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- Jeeva wrote: > ofcourse there is no fixed path of movement. How would we know that? > Yet for each person, > life is series of happenings which is termed as life path. But what will life be, if the person(ality) is gone? How would this psychologically "naked" life be without the protection of the person? > Just I asked ,can you share your understanding as there are more > possibilities that you might be aware of. Sure. There is nowhere to go, nothing to achieve. Everything else is an illusion, is a projection of our wish that everything should make sense. We even want to be somebody important or want to experience something very profound, that's why we create God in our image or invent a final state of peace. We do not want to live a decent life of our own, we are unable to live peacefully, hence we need the search for God or Nirvana to keep our conscience quiet. But the way from where we are to where we want to be - if we have enough guts and stamina and luck to go it at all, is just pain. All the pain, inadequacy, misery which we want to overcome to reach peace, cannot be simply dropped, but has to be experienced TOTALLY, WITHOUT ANY EXCUSES, WITHOUT ANY FILTERS, BLOCKS OR DEFENSES. Then the painful, suppressed material in our body-psyche is loosing it's tension slowly, slowly, slowly. And finally we will be happy just to be able to breath. When I say this, I can see, how everybody is jumping up, throwing his NOs at me and puts me down with his judgements to feel himself a little better and defend his illusions and spirituel investments against the truth of my sharing. So don't take the trouble to tell me that I'm wrong - I've heard that already tenthousand times. Just understand, that I have nothing else to share, because I don't want to lie. By the way this "There is nowhere to go, nothing to achieve" is the beginning of the Sannyas-message I received in 1980. And I love this man for it - not because he is lovable or did great lovely things with me, no, just because there is Love in me. Having dissolved some of my old energies, having reexperienced my painful traumata again, again, again did not create anything and took away much. But the result is some emptiness, some space. Less me - more space. Less me - more Love. Enlightenment? Fuckit! No interest. Breathing in, breathing out. Going to a movie tonight with a friend. If you are not satisfied with such simple things, you don't deserve better than to suffer on a path which leads nowhere. Michael -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Dezember 2007 17:54 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: > > --- Jeeva wrote: > > > ofcourse there is no fixed path of movement. > > How would we know that? > > > Yet for each person, > > life is series of happenings which is termed as life path. > > But what will life be, if the person(ality) is gone? > How would this psychologically "naked" life be without the protection > of the person? > > > Just I asked ,can you share your understanding as there are more > > possibilities that you might be aware of. > > Sure. > > > There is nowhere to go, nothing to achieve. > > > Everything else is an illusion, is a projection of our wish that > everything should make sense. > We even want to be somebody important or want to experience something > very profound, that's why we create God in our image or invent a final > state of peace. > > We do not want to live a decent life of our own, we are unable to live > peacefully, hence we need the search for God or Nirvana to keep our > conscience quiet. > > But the way from where we are to where we want to be > - if we have enough guts and stamina and luck to go it at all, is just > pain. All the pain, inadequacy, misery which we want to overcome to > reach peace, cannot be simply dropped, but has to be experienced > TOTALLY, WITHOUT ANY EXCUSES, WITHOUT ANY FILTERS, BLOCKS OR DEFENSES. > Then the painful, suppressed material in our body-psyche is loosing > it's tension slowly, slowly, slowly. And finally we will be happy just > to be able to breath. > > > When I say this, I can see, how everybody is jumping up, throwing his > NOs at me and puts me down with his judgements to feel himself a > little better and defend his illusions and spirituel investments > against the truth of my sharing. > > So don't take the trouble to tell me that I'm wrong > - I've heard that already tenthousand times. Just understand, that I > have nothing else to share, because I don't want to lie. That's a good one. People have such investment in (re)establishing the truth about themselves, scared to be misunderstood or misinterpreted, eager to keep intact their holy mental image. > By the way this "There is nowhere to go, nothing to achieve" > is the beginning of the Sannyas-message I received in 1980. > And I love this man for it - not because he is lovable or did great > lovely things with me, no, just because there is Love in me. Having > dissolved some of my old energies, having reexperienced my painful > traumata again, again, again did not create anything and took away > much. But the result is some emptiness, some space. > Less me - more space. Less me - more Love. Whitman: Gedichte von Traum und Tat, deutsch von Gustav Landauer (1915) "Liebe, außer der Liebenden nichts ist - Liebe, die Zeit und Raum überwindet, Liebe, die Tag und Nacht ist - Liebe, die Sonne und Mond ist und Sterne, Liebe in Scharlach und Üppigkeit, duftkranke Liebe, Keine Worte als Worte der Liebe, kein andres Denken als Liebe." ... "Love, that is all the earth to lovers—Love, that mocks time and space; Love, that is day and night—Love, that is sun and moon and stars; Love, that is crimson, sumptuous, sick with perfume; No other words, but words of love—no other thought but Love." > Enlightenment? Fuckit! No interest. > Breathing in, breathing out. > Going to a movie tonight with a friend. > > > If you are not satisfied > with such simple things, > you don't deserve better > than to suffer on a path > which leads nowhere. > > > Michael > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Dezember 2007 11:47 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Please respect that on your path http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1037349,00.jpg -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Jeeva Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Dezember 2007 14:08 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: > > When I say this, I can see, how everybody is jumping up, throwing his > NOs at me and puts me down with his judgements to feel himself a > little better and defend his illusions and spirituel investments > against the truth of my sharing. Thanks for sharing your understanding from your experiences. I am not here to judge. I can understand that you are sharing your experience and explaining your subjective reality,though there is a possibility that it might not be the Absolute Truth.Even if it is an absolute Truth,still I might need further experience to acknowledge. Just now I am just listening what you are saying from your point of view. Jeeva -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Dezember 2007 14:50 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Jeeva" wrote: > > --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: > > > > > When I say this, I can see, how everybody is jumping up, throwing > > his NOs at me and puts me down with his judgements to feel himself a > > little better and defend his illusions and spirituel investments > > against the truth of my sharing. > > Thanks for sharing your understanding from your experiences. > I am not here to judge. > > I can understand that you are sharing your experience and explaining > your subjective reality,though there is a possibility that it might > not be the Absolute Truth.Even if it is an absolute Truth,still I > might need further experience to acknowledge. > Just now I am just listening what you are saying from your point of > view. lol! you are using shrink tricks Jeeva! > Jeeva > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Jeeva Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Dezember 2007 16:25 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Paroissien" wrote: > lol! you are using shrink tricks Jeeva! Eric, can you explain what do you mean by a shrink Trick -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Dezember 2007 21:46 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Jeeva" wrote: > > --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Paroissien" > wrote: > > > lol! you are using shrink tricks Jeeva! > > Eric, can you explain what do you mean by a shrink Trick They have invented a mask to keep professional and protected behind, they say: "i hear you well" "i understand you could feel that way" "You probably have a good reason to see me from this angle" When insulted their pulse races to 110 beats, but they have a ready sentence: "I see you are a bit upset, could you explain your feelings" Hand when the patient takes out his gun: "Are you aware that you are displaying aggressiveness and that you could harm someone?" ... They learn it at school, it gives them a buffer zone to filter and sort out their quite human feelings of sending aggression for aggression, it make them passive-aggressive instead, life always find a way. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Dezember 2007 22:00 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In Eric Paroissien wrote: > They have invented a mask to keep professional and protected behind, > they say: > "i hear you well" > "i understand you could feel that way" > "You probably have a good reason to see me from this angle" You know these tricks very well, Eric. :) -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Dezember 2007 23:11 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: > > > --- In Eric Paroissien wrote: > > They have invented a mask to keep professional and protected behind, > > they say: > > "i hear you well" > > "i understand you could feel that way" > > "You probably have a good reason to see me from this angle" > > You know these tricks very well, Eric. :) :-) Tricks of the trade. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Thomas Gesendet: Donnerstag, 20. Dezember 2007 03:58 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Just Hello For Now ! Just want to say 'Hello' to you. Be seeing you ... Thomas -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Donnerstag, 20. Dezember 2007 07:34 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Awareness --- Thomas wrote: > Just want to say 'Hello' to you. > Be seeing you ... > Thomas Awareness is something like movement, it is a creation of the alife, healthy, grownup organism. Yet in many species the young need to get movement and awareness from the elders until they are themselves selfsuffucient enough to move on their own in their natural environment and create there a big enough sphere of awareness for themselves. The need to get awareness from others ist an indication, that the growing-up has not been completed or is severely crippled. This deficiency is transmitted from ome generation to the other, because a parent, who needs to get awareness from others tends to take it from his children also, hence instead of giving awareness to the youngsters will push them into an awarenes-deficiency which is usually at least as big as that of the parent. With humans this effect is amplified by an order of magnitude, because the present societies have strong interest to keep their members on a domesticated (that is: infantile) level of awareness, hence the awareness-deficiency is enforced on a daily basis to such a magnitude and omnipresence that it is seen as totally "normal". I would say the situation calls for deep therapy, but most therapists suffer from the same deficiency (often - because of the deficiency - without being aware of their state). Therapies have often already developed into awareness-wellfare-stations; you pay your therapist to give you awareness. So the one, who should help you to come out of the addiction has become your dealer already. In the modern esoteric/spiritual/alternative circus the situation is totally perverted. Teachers and Masters need to give massive doses of awareness and love for free, otherwise nobody would come. Although the opposite would be needed for treatment, they first have to give us the needle in doses, enough to kill a horse. Tom, you have become a Satsang-Junkie, an awareness sucker. From month to month you are already needing higher doses. And nobody but you can change that. Either you come out of it, or you will die in that state. Ka -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Donnerstag, 20. Dezember 2007 07:37 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] N0by is happy... ...to be on moderation, because he didn't say anything for days. :) -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Jeeva Gesendet: Donnerstag, 20. Dezember 2007 09:17 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Perception of the world by non- human beings --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Paroissien" wrote: Eric, thanks for your explanation about 'Shrink Tricks' -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Thomas Gesendet: Donnerstag, 20. Dezember 2007 14:02 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: N0by is happy... Yes, >N0by is happy< because you, Michael, fulfills his expectations to be moderated by you, or others ... You give him what he wants and he is grateful to you ... So n0by must be alone and hanker for far away friends, who never come to see him ... and he imagines to love people just via long-distance energy field (morphogenetic, mesmeric-animalistic- magnetism, Buddhafield theory of spiritual superconscious bullshit) He, who is special, cannot be tolerated by those who can see his ordinariness, and is banned to keep quiet - this, the spiritual ego holds as his shield of his special meaningfulness against those who quiet his chattering mind .. and he notices this love for his Buddha-Nature. The prophet is not heard in his own neighbourhood - so his silence covers the whole universe ... n0by for eternity ! Me, just joking ? Thomas ______________________________________ Michael Zimmermann wrote: > ...to be on moderation, because he didn't say anything for days. > > :) -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Thomas Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Dezember 2007 01:27 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Awareness ? Things are changing - I don't change. OK, maybe I give up the grip for some of those investments in what you call 'attention sucking' ... ? The truth is, almost no attention was given back to me - finally - so the feeling got stronger and stronger, that I can also just stop the writing and sharing ... cause nobody is interested at all ... I just amuse myself to death. I was interested in sharing and to build up meaning and understanding through my energy and my writings, for me and maybe for some interested readers ... but they were all bored, and I just did it for the occupation but lost interest to continue for ever. Satsang - by the way - has nothing to do with all that - except that possible watching of my motives and escapes, etc... I am on my own - no friends around me in the neighbourhood ... no club to go to ... except the Fitness-Center for my work-out and wellness: Saunas, Whirlpools, Swimming, relaxation and to be alone - with other naked bodys. No interaction is needed there, talk and emotions can have a rest in peace. Everyone is just here for himself ... and resting in himself the most. No need to contact others, get sexual, or think unnessasary stuff at all ... Just relax and feel good ... So I go there every second or third day. Thats all - don't forget my job - and my sitting at the computer - by the way. (Last Satsang was in spring, this year) Thomas ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kabir wrote: > Tom, you have become a Satsang-Junkie, an awareness sucker. > From month to month you are already needing higher doses. > And nobody but you can change that. > Either you come out of it, > or you will die > in that state. > > Ka -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Thomas Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Dezember 2007 02:24 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Michael to Sarlo in his group LivingOsho I'm reading through the old postings, to come to be on the same level of time and space with early members. n0by was moderated because he crossposted Michael to Sarlo in anothet newsgroup. Why n0by did this at all ? To fight against certain rules and yahoo-paragraphs ? NO. He loves Michaels power to confront people. Because noby is a rival to Sarlo, he would love Michaels criticism to be a part of his own political crusade towards super- moderators who have used their power to silence the eternal freedom-rebell: n0by He wants him as a comrade - as a brother in arms against his political enemies. True ? n0by can't agreee or disagree - He has been put off by his schoolmaster Ka. Kabir, the n0by-silencer - Peace ......   Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Dezember 2007 05:22 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Yes, awareness, --- Thomas wrote: > Things are changing - I don't change. You block yourself. You block your life energy by blocking your feelings. > OK, maybe I give up the grip for some > of those investments in what you call > 'attention sucking' ... ? The very question is one of your main tricks to get attention: asking childish questions. > The truth is, almost no attention > was given back to me - finally - so > the feeling got stronger and stronger, Of course, that's the natural way. But you don't want this feeling, you reject it. This rejection of your own feelings is it how you block yourself, block your natural flow of being. That's the reason that you don't change. > that I can also just stop the writing > and sharing ... cause nobody is > interested at all ... I just amuse > myself to death. "Mom, Daddy, if you are not interested in me I w ill die!"  > I was interested in sharing and to > build up meaning and understanding > through my energy and my writings, > for me and maybe for some interested > readers ... What do you have to share? You don't accept yourself, but we should compensate for that? > but they were all bored, > and I just did it for the occupation > but lost interest to continue for ever. It didn't resolve anything, very good. > Satsang - by the way - has nothing > to do with all that - except that > possible watching of my motives and > escapes, etc... "Satsang" is my word for your interest to get attention, love and solutions from others. And this has everything to do with your state. Watching your escapes from your feelings is an escape from your feelings. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Thomas Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Dezember 2007 16:15 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Yes, awareness, Michael, please find a better word for 'Satsang' ... to imagine my situation. That button is not needed. So what. I accept your pushes - cause you are right in what you have described here. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Dezember 2007 19:17 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Yes, awareness, --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" wrote: > > Michael, please find a better word for 'Satsang' ... to imagine my > situation. > That button is not needed. > So what. > I accept your pushes - cause you are > right in what you have described here. Michael is right, your life is right, everything happens at the right place for the right reason, people suffer and seek control because they want to freeze or catch up with life-as-it-happens, while liberation settles as a matter of 'wanting' life to be exactly as it is and so for you be exactly at your place Thomas. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Dezember 2007 19:17 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Yes, awareness, --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" wrote: > > Michael, please find a better word for 'Satsang' ... to imagine my > situation. > That button is not needed. > So what. > I accept your pushes - cause you are > right in what you have described here. Michael is right, your life is right, everything happens at the right place for the right reason, people suffer and seek control because they want to freeze or catch up with life-as-it-happens, while liberation settles as a matter of 'wanting' life to be exactly as it is and so for you be exactly at your place Thomas. Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Dezember 2007 20:17 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Yes, awareness, --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" wrote: > > Michael, please find a better word for > 'Satsang' ... to imagine my situation.   No. It's your's to create a better situation.   Then the word Satsang will be good enough. __._,_.___ -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Dezember 2007 20:38 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Yes, awareness, --- Eric wrote: > Michael is right, your life is right, everything happens at the right > place for the right reason, people suffer and seek control because > they want to freeze or catch up with life-as-it-happens, while > liberation settles as a matter of 'wanting' life to be exactly as it > is and so for you be exactly at your place Thomas. This is impotent esotheric hogwash, which can be found in any book about positive thinking and changes nothing - except that it helps to sell the books. This "you are right, I am right, my cat is right, my dog is right" concept is one of the drugs sold in the eso-circus in masses. When it's true for a person, it became true after intense and painfull work only (and often just for a short relaxation period). When it's not true for a person it's only a sack of colored sugar pills which tend to ruin the intelligence like sugar-pills tend to ruin the teeth. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Dezember 2007 21:17 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Yes, awareness, --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: ... > This is impotent esotheric hogwash, which can be found in any book > about positive thinking and changes nothing - except that it helps to > sell the books. > > This "you are right, I am right, my cat is right, my dog is right" > concept is one of the drugs sold in the eso-circus in masses. > > When it's true for a person, it became true after intense and painfull > work only (and often just for a short relaxation period). > When it's not true for a person it's only a sack of colored sugar > pills which tend to ruin the intelligence like sugar-pills tend to > ruin the teeth. I was born without anger, i used to know depression 15 years ago or feelings of self-pity, but i never had anger, i had to learn to recognize it and know when people take themselves seriously and i needed to play their game in order to look tuned or empathetic, i remember when there was a fight, it always happened in the same way, the guy lost control and hit me, and i'd look at him empty, i had no idea what the situation was requesting of me. Last year i was with the kids and a drunken guy started to insult me and he approached to hit me, i was concerned about not hurting him or not being hurt and the kids would be in an awkward situation, so i applied both hands on his chest with some strength to make him fall then i kept him on the ground until help came. Today it is simpler, whenever someone tells me "you are an idiot" or "you talk nonsense" i don't have to fake involvement, and i suspect more and more that many people are like me, they play their feelings, and possibly most people are not ready to back them up, if you tell them "yeah sure, what else is new" they find another object; also i'm too flexible and common to really crystallize or attract true aggressiveness or deserve enemies. Phill's reactions to our posts at n0by's were interesting about that, he seemed to be really in a world where someone could hurt him, someone could do something irreparable to him. As i said last time, there is not one person in the world i would say "shithead" and not hug the next minute, i have no understanding for example of Sarlo being so steadily annoyed by my posts, and how he can keep for so many months the same negative attitude toward an ever-changing person or situation. To come back to what i said to Thomas, about "wanting things to be exactly as they are" and "seeing the right situation in every situation", i keep it, i can explain it more if someone wants and it is a very valuable insight that could save a life when the person is open enough to hear it as maybe Thomas is. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Dezember 2007 21:22 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] a trick to avoid an offensive picture Two days ago i was eating when opening this group's home page and had a sudden stomach contraction at the sigh of picture of the man with a red face, so now i open the group directly on the messages page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nopath/messages/ and if i want to see if the pic is still there i go on "my groups" page http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups where there are only thumbnails. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Dezember 2007 21:31 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Yes, awareness, --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Paroissien" wrote: ... > To come back to what i said to Thomas, about "wanting things to be > exactly as they are" and "seeing the right situation in every > situation", i keep it, i can explain it more if someone wants and it > is a very valuable insight that could save a life when the person is > open enough to hear it as maybe Thomas is. For example there is this a Japanese woman's practice, Sono says, whatever people say or do to you, have this attitude: "I have no complaints whatsoever and i thank you very much" I believe this is sharp as a warrior's blade. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Dezember 2007 23:12 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Yes, awareness, --- Eric wrote: > To come back to what i said to Thomas, about "wanting things to be > exactly as they are" and "seeing the right situation in every > situation", i keep it, i can explain it more if someone wants and it > is a very valuable insight that could save a life when the person is > open enough to hear it as maybe Thomas is. It's not about you at all. If you have no feelings that doesn't mean that I have none or that your actions or statements have no consequences. But you behave and argue as if. I don't believe that you are without personal reactions, because you often want to defend, justify, explain your standpoint. But if you talk from your head while the other comes from his heart, well, you know, there is no wonder, that people are getting the creeps with you. I do, when I read your statements. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Dezember 2007 23:14 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: a trick to avoid an offensive picture --- Eric wrote: > Two days ago i was eating when opening this group's home page and had > a sudden stomach contraction at the sigh of picture of the man with a > red face, so now i open the group directly on the messages page: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nopath/messages/ > and if i want to see if the pic is still there i go on "my groups" > page http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups where there are only thumbnails. So you have feelings. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Dezember 2007 23:18 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Yes, awareness, --- Eric wrote: > For example there is this a Japanese woman's practice, Sono says, > whatever people say or do to you, have this attitude: > "I have no complaints whatsoever and i thank you very much" > I believe this is sharp as a warrior's blade. A sharp blade in the hand of somebody without feelings and sithout compassion - Happy Christmas and thank you for the chainsaw. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Dezember 2007 00:25 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Yes, awareness, --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: > > --- Eric wrote: > > To come back to what i said to Thomas, about "wanting things to be > > exactly as they are" and "seeing the right situation in every > > situation", i keep it, i can explain it more if someone wants and it > > is a very valuable insight that could save a life when the person is > > open enough to hear it as maybe Thomas is. > > It's not about you at all. If you have no feelings that doesn't mean > that I have none or that your actions or statements have no consequences. > But you behave and argue as if. > > I don't believe that you are without personal reactions, because you > often want to defend, justify, explain your standpoint. But if you > talk from your head while the other comes from his heart, well, you > know, there is no wonder, that people are getting the creeps with you. > I do, when I read your statements. What is gone is the train of emotions that build the story of myself, but all the impulses are there, my problem never was anger in the first place but impulses of fear come, or self-pity, some people are more on the "oh poor me side" (n0by, Thomas or me) and others are more on the "i'll kill the bastard" (Ozay, Rasa). -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Dezember 2007 00:26 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: a trick to avoid an offensive picture --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: ... > So you have feelings. Never been so receptive. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Thomas Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Dezember 2007 01:01 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: No, awareness, OK, Kabir I will create a better situation and you don't play the lord of wrong labels anymore, will you ? Thomas smiling ... .. at the feet of Kabir's Satsang ________________________________ Michael Zimmermann wrote: > No. It's your's to create a better situation. > Then the word Satsang will be good enough. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Thomas Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Dezember 2007 01:26 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Yes, awareness, Hi Eric, of course you are right - but Kabir knows that also ... Just: he wants to trigger certain suppressed energies in people, so he provokes them where he feels their right button ... And he is right mostly - but rarely people are that ready to except their wounded knee, aeeehhhhh: heart, mind, emotion, body. Kabir is exploring his art - it's a kind of therapy called: 'Provocative Coaching' He is quiet good in this - and I love his loving ways to whip our poor egos ! (Love to stand it, if he does it to me) Now, shall we uncover his keys, or is it better to let them do their work invisibly - on those, who are still comfortably numb, and remain believers for their own reactinary ways to remain untouched by these teachings of a simple Zimmermann ? (... just like Robert or Jesus) And: Do I take away parts of Kabir's powers, when I speak openly about that ? Please excuse me, if I did so ! .... Eric wrote: To come back to what i said to Thomas, about "wanting things to be exactly as they are" and "seeing the right situation in every situation", i keep it, i can explain it more if someone wants and it is a very valuable insight that could save a life when the person is open enough to hear it as maybe Thomas is. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Thomas Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Dezember 2007 01:28 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: a trick to avoid an offensive ... devil >> Pleased to have met you - hope you will guess my name ! << ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eric wrote: > Two days ago i was eating when opening this group's home page and had > a sudden stomach contraction at the sigh of picture of the man with a > red face, so now i open the group directly on the messages page: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nopath/messages/ > and if i want to see if the pic is still there i go on "my groups" page > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > where there are only thumbnails. > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Dezember 2007 01:54 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Yes, awareness, --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" wrote: > > Hi Eric, > > of course you are right - but Kabir > knows that also ... Just: he wants to > trigger certain suppressed energies > in people, so he provokes them where he feels their right button ... > And he is right mostly - but rarely people are that ready to except > their wounded knee, > aeeehhhhh: heart, mind, emotion, body. > > Kabir is exploring his art - it's a kind of therapy called: > 'Provocative Coaching' > He is quiet good in this - and I love > his loving ways to whip our poor egos ! > (Love to stand it, if he does it to me) > > Now, shall we uncover his keys, or is > it better to let them do their work > invisibly - on those, who are still > comfortably numb, and remain believers for their own reactinary ways > to remain untouched by these teachings of a simple Zimmermann ? > (... just like Robert or Jesus) > > And: Do I take away parts of Kabir's > powers, when I speak openly about that ? He'll be fine :-) > Please excuse me, if I did so ! > > .... -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Dezember 2007 01:55 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: a trick to avoid an offensive ... devil --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" wrote: > > >> Pleased to have met you - > hope you will guess my name ! << > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Your name is Thomas. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Thomas Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Dezember 2007 02:04 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Hi Eric, nice to meet you ! -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Thomas Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Dezember 2007 02:22 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] to avoid the ... devil ? ... Why ? Hi Eric, that 'Rolling Stones' song, of course ... in our minds ... No, I was also talking about that red-skinned guy there, that Michael has put on the main page of this list. It's him ... the fear of our lord, the Anti-God ... but the real heroe, who is searching on his own accord, not manipulated by holy unawarenes, which may be spiritually correct, but ... Tom P.S. Merry X-mas to all of you ! I drank some rum and tea with brown sugar with in ostfriesian tea, after having relaxed at Meridian Spa's saunas and follow afters ... Great, I love that ... Alcohol is vegetarian too ! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eric wrote: Your name is Thomas. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thomas wrote: Pleased to have met you - hope you will guess my name ! << -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Dezember 2007 06:38 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Yes, awareness, --- Eric wrote: > What is gone is the train of emotions that build the story of myself, > but all the impulses are there, my problem never was anger in the > first place but impulses of fear come, or self-pity, some people are > more on the "oh poor me side" (n0by, Thomas or me) and others are more > on the "i'll kill the bastard" (Ozay, Rasa). I have used the word "feeling", without defining it first, so you thought I mean that which is usually called by this word. What you call impulses, I call feeling. What you call feeling, I call false feelings (a mixture of ego reactions, memory of feelings, reasons etc.) Sorry for the misunderstanding, my fault. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Dezember 2007 06:47 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: No, awareness, --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" wrote: > > OK, Kabir > > I will create a better situation > and you don't play the lord of > wrong labels anymore, will you ? > > Thomas smiling ... > .. at the feet of Kabir's Satsang If you don't stop, telling others what to do, you will never experience any other sitation - or you will not live long enough to, which boils down to the same thing. Your bossiness as well as your slimery is both totally inadequate for our relationship. Kabir -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Dezember 2007 09:26 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: to avoid the ... devil ? ... Why ? --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" wrote: > > Hi Eric, > > that 'Rolling Stones' song, > of course ... in our minds ... > > No, I was also talking about that > red-skinned guy there, that Michael > has put on the main page of this list. > > It's him ... the fear of our lord, > the Anti-God ... but the real heroe, > who is searching on his own accord, > not manipulated by holy unawarenes, > which may be spiritually correct, > but ... > > Tom > > P.S. > Merry X-mas to all of you ! > I drank some rum and tea with brown > sugar with in ostfriesian tea, after > having relaxed at Meridian Spa's > saunas and follow afters ... > > Great, I love that ... > Alcohol is vegetarian too ! > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We need more imagination to make splendid menus for Xmas when meat is not there, but the fun is intact, i have reverted back to coffee a month ago after years on tea, a delicious organic arabica in an Italian steam cafetiere hmmm! http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/04/68/22246804.jpg > Eric wrote: > > Your name is Thomas. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Thomas wrote: > > Pleased to have met you - > hope you will guess my name ! << > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Dezember 2007 09:32 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: Yes, awareness, --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: > > --- Eric wrote: > > What is gone is the train of emotions that build the story of > > myself, but all the impulses are there, my problem never was anger > > in the first place but impulses of fear come, or self-pity, some > > people are more on the "oh poor me side" (n0by, Thomas or me) and > > others are more on the "i'll kill the bastard" (Ozay, Rasa). > > I have used the word "feeling", without defining it first, so you thought > I mean that which is usually called by this word. > > What you call impulses, I call feeling. > What you call feeling, I call false feelings (a mixture of ego reactions, > memory of feelings, reasons etc.) I got it, Gurdjieff had another set of concepts too, essence and false personality, the more you work on yourself the closer to your essence. At first as a young man one plays what he is expected to be in society, with mother (feminine dominance) and society, then he scraps off the dirt layers and comes to be his own man. > Sorry for the misunderstanding, my fault. > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Dezember 2007 10:11 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] The new pic on the home page It rather looks like a Florentine style of face, an artistic imagination, i have two paintings by Fra Angelico on the walls, they show angels as in the "annunciation to Mary", they have that face, with a set of face features characteristic to that style. http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/sep4_griffin_ttl.jpg http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1221/csmimg/p19a.jpg http://www.floralmusee.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/07/31/image_1463_v2_m56577569830537986_3.jpg -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Dezember 2007 10:40 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] new pic about the home I'm not sure wether the Higher is my creation, an inner state, I am one of it's many states or wether it is real - independant from me. The only thing I'm sure about is, that it exists while wether I exist becomes more and more unsure. Kabir -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Thomas Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2007 14:53 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: No, awareness, Hi Michael, I don't tell you what to do, Ka - just keep it that way also - Pre-warning ! I have not taken Sannyas from you yet. And it seems you rather want to take it away ... what doesn't belong to me anyway. Fine ! But keep out of my proppertíes ! Be aware the dog ! This ist true for both of us ! Let me drop it by myself - don't you dare to tear it away - This is myyyy freedom to let go of that which is not true and is wrong in me. 'Relationship' ? Do you want to be friendly to me - now ? I feel still pissed by your teachings, and I am quite sure, that this is my own hung-up ... So please excuse me for that ! My reactions are programmed - this I can feel ... so I let it out ... and be aware enough to also understand that auto-agressive self-protection once and forever ... one day. (and now) (I am trying to be honest to my feelings here, which may not be enough for you ... as usual) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michael wrote: > If you don't stop, telling others what to do, you will never > experience any other sitation > - or you will not live long enough to, which boils down to the same > thing. > > Your bossiness as well as your slimery is both totally inadequate for > our relationship. > > Kabir Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von TomGarn Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2007 15:03 An: Y - nopath Betreff: [nopath] Pardon !     -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2007 15:19 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: No, awareness, --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > I don't tell you what to do, Ka - just keep it that way also - > Pre-warning ! > > I have not taken Sannyas from you yet. > And it seems you rather want to take it away ... what doesn't belong > to me anyway. > Fine ! > > But keep out of my proppertíes ! > Be aware the dog ! > This ist true for both of us ! > > Let me drop it by myself - don't you dare to tear it away - This is > myyyy freedom to let go of that which is not true and is wrong in me. > > 'Relationship' ? > Do you want to be friendly to me - now ? > > I feel still pissed by your teachings, and I am quite sure, that this > is my own hung-up ... So please excuse me for that ! > > My reactions are programmed - this I can feel ... so I let it out ... > and be aware enough to also understand that auto-agressive > self-protection once and forever ... one day. > (and now) > > (I am trying to be honest to my feelings here, which may not be enough > for you ... as usual) > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Oh god, why does everything have to be so K-Komplicated. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Thomas Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2007 15:38 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Mesage for Kabir Jesus Channeling via Tom: My dear Kabir, thanks for posting my boy-face here on the list ... wasn't I an unsophisticated simple kid ? Who should be pissed about me ? Well, it happpend to be the other way round, as we know now. But was it because of my ways to take away the wrong and false by hurting my friends and lovers ? You seem to believe that - like they trained you in church. No, I was just talking truth - not ready to shoot and hurt people at all ! You feel you are honest to others but I can see, you still fight to tear off wrong masks - you want to be ready to: 'throw out the merchants and moneychangers from the temple' ... as you have called it here. This will kill you to soon - maybe you get a heart-attack or something. The Romans would'nt harm you, right? People can only drop their falsities if they can see it for themself - so help them with your true being, and don't act, as if you could do it for them, as if by trust to you, false things could be more esaily dropped, as if they would let you tear off their own masks so easily ! You are young, and you are learning, so please don't be so precocious ! (altklug) Have you watched your pain, when people chase you away from their flowerbeds ? (fleurs du mal included, shure ...) It is your Karma that you put upon yourself, when you do things to others which are not suitable for us, the children of the lord - start to question your Messiah-trip, dear Ka ! Love to you and Thomas and all of you ! Have some nice xmas-days in peace ... Your Jesus -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2007 18:28 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: No, awareness, --- Eric wrote: > Oh god, why does everything have to be so K-Komplicated. B-b-e-caus-e-e-e-this-is-ause-pla-this-place-has-place-so-cause-as-as-place-so-o-man-o-any-so-any-place-has-e- as-echo-oes-oes-s. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Montag, 24. Dezember 2007 11:14 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Intelligence First we create an image of ourselves, then we identify with it, suffer from it and finally we call it intelligence. But the uppermost stupidity is it, when we use this same intelligence to get rid of the problems. Good that we have created a God/Devil pair to put the blame on and get salvation from. Fuck you, thinking, fuck you! Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. Dezember 2007 21:48 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] How to tell the truth without lying? Any story you would like to tell or hear? __._,_.___ -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Thomas Gesendet: Freitag, 28. Dezember 2007 01:54 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: How to tell the truth without lying? Hi Michael, If you you want to make it happen, I'd like to hear the true daily story of that Michael here & now in his ordinary real life. ... what he does, to make his living - what he does with his spare time ... how he feels about the weather, body, eating, drinking, or whatever ... if you could do this for the first time on the web, almost. If not ... OK ... of course ... This is to hear something besides your well known ability to act as a 'web-coach' to trigger lie and truth coming out of your voluntarily wanna-be-victims. I felt, you might want to do some change but maybe I was wrong ... Fact is, that without people resisting our provocative ways to talk, we might have no reason to talk at all - the way we used do to that for so long ... Thomas greeting (with the flu right now) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michael wrote: Any story you would like to tell or hear? -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Freitag, 28. Dezember 2007 11:22 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: How to tell the truth without lying? --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: > > Any story you would like to tell or hear? The field here is that of words, generally, and their power to evoke transcendence or to help realization, my personal path is less and less about words, my mother asked me two days ago, "don't you too hear what people say about you and it compels you to reconsider, or change", i said that words have stopped being meaningful to spirituality or personal transformation a long time ago and there is more to learn in an action, like when i decided to have my first kid, just going fir it head first without thinking, into this worldly involvement has taught me more than masters. Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Jeeva Gesendet: Freitag, 28. Dezember 2007 13:10 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: Re: [nopath] How to tell the truth without lying? In my feeling ,it is a great lie that Truth can be told...   Michael Zimmermann wrote: Any story you would like to tell or hear? -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Freitag, 28. Dezember 2007 13:35 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: How to tell the truth without lying? --- Thomas wrote: > ... I'd like > to hear the true daily story of that Michael here & now in his > ordinary real life. > ... what he does, to make his living - what he does with his spare > time ... how he feels about the weather, body, eating, drinking, or > whatever ... if you could do this for the first time on the web, > almost. That's not what I would call a good story. I don't like writing diaries, creating or reading blogs and "Big Brother" on TV is the surest thing to make me zapp to another channel. But your wish gave me the idea to write a story, which I'am already thinking about, with the protagonist "Ka" and as much daily, autobiographic material as I can manage. After all, that way I could create a pretty realistic environment. So you will have wait until "Ka" sets his footsteps on paper, but it will be sort of sci-fi or fantasy short story with an esotheric/transpersonal background, as it's core story is based on some dream experiences I had. We both have to wait for that story... > This is to hear something besides your well known ability to act as a > 'web-coach' to trigger lie and truth coming out of your voluntarily > wanna-be-victims. A coach is born and not made. Hence if you want to meet me as a non-coach, you'll have to wait until I piped out. And should you be interested more in playing the victim, better go and see some of the "gurus", who promise you more - the more the better. It may take a little time, but in the end promises are the surest path to the deeper experiences of frustration. Why not hear some really good Osho-lectures again and again? Just imagine, whenever he speaks about an enlightened master, he's in reality speaking about you. That will do more than you've ever dreamed about being a wanna-be and a victim. Osho - spiritual Sado-Maso as it's best. Five Stars. Editor's choice. Best value for your bucks. Reference class. > I felt, you might want to do some change but maybe I was wrong ... You want me to be someone else than who I am. That's not interesting for me. I had enough, ENOUGH experiences while going into that direction myself for many ages. For me the new thing is it, to be myself as exact and truthfully as I can manage. That's my challenge and satistfaction. And when changes are happening (which is more often and deeper, than you might recognize), I just continue into the new direction, but I'm not doing the change. > Fact is, that > without people resisting our provocative > ways to talk, we might have no reason to > talk at all - the way we used do to that > for so long ... So be it. No problem. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Freitag, 28. Dezember 2007 13:43 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: How to tell the truth without lying? --- Eric wrote: > The field here is that of words, generally, and their power to evoke > transcendence or to help realization, Help realization? No. Preparing the mind, that's the best one could do in this situation. And not even preparing for any transcendence, but preparing it to start a training to get prepared and ready. So you are not here to exchange words? Why ARE you here then? -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Freitag, 28. Dezember 2007 13:45 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: How to tell the truth without lying? --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, Jeeva wrote: > > In my feeling ,it is a great lie that Truth can be told... I agree. And who was that liar? -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Freitag, 28. Dezember 2007 15:45 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: How to tell the truth without lying? --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: > > --- Eric wrote: > > > The field here is that of words, generally, and their power to evoke > > transcendence or to help realization, > > Help realization? No. Preparing the mind, that's the best one could do > in this situation. And not even preparing for any transcendence, but > preparing it to start a training to get prepared and ready. > > > So you are not here to exchange words? Why ARE you here then? Yes i enjoy the exchange of words, they are also good at a stage of seeking. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Kabir Gesendet: Freitag, 28. Dezember 2007 16:32 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: Re: [nopath] Re: How to tell the truth without lying? Am Freitag, 28. Dezember 2007 15:45:25 schrieb Eric Paroissien: > Yes i enjoy the exchange of words, Ah, so do I. > they are also good at a stage of seeking. May I ask what you are seeking? Or do you mean the seekings others are doing? -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Freitag, 28. Dezember 2007 18:56 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: How to tell the truth without lying? --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, Kabir wrote: > > Am Freitag, 28. Dezember 2007 15:45:25 schrieb Eric Paroissien: > > > Yes i enjoy the exchange of words, > > Ah, so do I. > > > they are also good at a stage of seeking. > > May I ask what you are seeking? > Or do you mean the seekings others are doing? I am not seeking but certainly dealing with big chunks of what is perceived as heavinesses in me; the issue with aging or dying is solved but there is still a refinement work. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Paroissien Gesendet: Freitag, 28. Dezember 2007 21:31 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Epiphany http://images.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/0701/epiphany.jpg   Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von TomGarn Gesendet: Freitag, 28. Dezember 2007 23:07 An: Y - nopath Betreff: [nopath] Re: How to tell the truth without lying?       http://theemergencesite.com/Images/FaceFractal.jpg     Jeeva: In my feeling, it is a great lie that Truth can be told...   Kabir: I agree. And who was that liar?   http://www.visible-selection.de/entwurf/bewerbung/images/cover_apoptygma_berzerk_front.jpg  __._,_.___ -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Jeeva Gesendet: Samstag, 29. Dezember 2007 15:44 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: How to tell the truth without lying? --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Zimmermann" wrote: > > --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, Jeeva wrote: > > > > In my feeling ,it is a great lie that Truth can be told... > > I agree. >And who was that liar? This question doesn't seem to be intended to get an answer from other person's view but rather intended to know how one reacts to this . Any way some times i used to feel that Osho's claim as an enlightened Man himself is a biggest lie.It doesn't seem to be he had experienced the highest state of consciousness. This doesn't mean that I have higher consciousness than Osho but it is just a mental understanding at this point of time. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Kabir Gesendet: Samstag, 29. Dezember 2007 16:21 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: Re: [nopath] Re: How to tell the truth without lying? Am Samstag, 29. Dezember 2007 15:43:32 schrieb Jeeva: > > > In my feeling ,it is a great lie that Truth can be told... > > I agree. > >And who was that liar? > This question doesn't seem to be intended to get an answer from other > person's view but rather intended to know how one reacts to this . Aha, you discriminate between a reaction and someones standpoint. So what's the difference? For me a standpoint is the body-mind's reaction to the given situation (i.e. upbringing, tradition, environment, company etc.). For you a standpoint is more than a reaction? Or less? > Any way some times i used to feel that Osho's claim as an enlightened > Man himself is a biggest lie.It doesn't seem to be he had experienced > the highest state of consciousness. > This doesn't mean that I have higher consciousness than Osho but it is > just a mental understanding at this point of time. Hence who was the liar? Osho? Or you? Or who? Me? Who claimed, that truth can be told with words? I don't remember Osho saying something to this effect, but perhaps you do. Or it can be said, that his listeners did that, when they took his words for face value and started to believe they had gotten the truth because they had heard some of his lectures? So what's your standpoint? I didn't get it yet. Kabir -- standing on 4000000000 years of tradition of Life on this planet -- but only 14 years old. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Jeeva Gesendet: Sonntag, 30. Dezember 2007 09:18 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: How to tell the truth without lying? --- In nopath@yahoogroups.com, Kabir wrote: > > Am Samstag, 29. Dezember 2007 15:43:32 schrieb Jeeva: > Hence who was the liar? Osho? Or you? Or who? Me? > Who claimed, that truth can be told with words? Osho or others have not claimed that. That's why when you ask who is a liar, I mentioned that it is not a direct question. > I don't remember Osho saying something to this effect, but perhaps you > do. > So what's your standpoint? I didn't get it yet. > Well. I have not mentioned any thing regarding my feeling about Osho.I will explain my view later. > Kabir -- > standing on 4000000000 years > of tradition of Life on this planet > -- but only 14 years old. Can you guess and tell the age of other 5 people gathered here LOL Jeeva not born yet ;-) -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Montag, 31. Dezember 2007 08:02 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: How to tell the truth without lying? --- Jeeva wrote: > Osho or others have not claimed that. > That's why when you ask who is a liar, I mentioned that it is not a > direct question. I asked a direct question - directed at you. Are my questions too personal for you? For me spirituality is a personal theme - a theme about individual feelings and individual experiences. That's why it cannot be "learned". But of course that's pretty uncomfortable, when one has learned much in that area and hence prefers theoretical dialogues. Is this the case for you, Jeeva - do you prefer theoretical dialogues and structured exchanges? Kabir -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Thomas Gesendet: Montag, 31. Dezember 2007 16:42 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: How to tell the truth without lying? Kabir said: For me spirituality is a personal theme - a theme about individual feelings and individual experiences. That's why it cannot be "learned". ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hi Ka, that may be the reason, because you, Ka, keep IT individual and private, because you think that otherwise you might play the role of someone teaching it to those who cannot learn it ? Happy new individual year to all of you ! Thomas -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: nopath@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nopath@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Zimmermann Gesendet: Montag, 31. Dezember 2007 21:40 An: nopath@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [nopath] Re: How to tell the truth without lying? --- Thomas wrote: > that may be the reason, because you, Ka, keep IT individual and > private, because you think that otherwise you might play the role of > someone teaching it to those who cannot learn it ? Why teach somebody anything, which he knows better all time?